Permission to pause with Bethan Gill

Our focus for this season is on wellbeing and self-care and I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips to help you manage your wellbeing alongside your career.

Today's guest is Bethan Gill, Associate Director for Inclusion and Diversity at Grant Thornton. Bethan has personally struggled with overwhelm and burnout and is currently on a three month sabbatical from work. She joins me today to share how her health has been affected in the past, and explains how to spot the triggers, how to ask for help and how to set boundaries. This episode is called Permission to pause.

The Confidence Conversation podcast with Joy Burnford explores the world of women, work and what it takes to feel more confident. A lack of confidence is not a crime. So, if you need some motivation, inspiration or a boost of confidence, grab a cuppa, go for a dog walk, or escape for a drive and join us for today’s conversation about confidence.

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Transcript

Joy Burnford: Our focus for this season is on wellbeing and self-care and I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips to help you manage your wellbeing alongside your career.  Today's guest is Bethan Gill, Associate Director for Inclusion and Diversity at Grant Thornton. Bethan has personally struggled with overwhelm and burnout and is currently on a three month sabbatical from work. She joins me today to share how her health has been affected in the past, and explains how to spot the triggers, how to ask for help and how to set boundaries. This episode is called Permission to pause. Welcome to The Confidence Conversation Bethan. It's so nice to have you. 

Bethan Gill: Thanks Joy, nice to be here.

Joy Burnford: The theme for this season is all about Wellbeing and self-care. So today, we're going to chat a bit about your background and your career, your personal experience of dealing with overwhelm and burnout, and how you've managed your wellbeing and self-care alongside work. We'll also talk a little bit about giving yourself permission to pause and celebrating your own strengths and achievements, which is, as we know, so important in this in this area. So to start with, can you tell me a little bit about your background and your career and how you've reached where you are today? 

Bethan Gill: Yeah, sure. Thank you. So I currently work at Grant Thornton, I'm in professional services. And I have been for 15 years. When I left school, I went to university and studied sociology, I had no idea what I wanted to do as a career, except for what I didn't want to do, which was to be a teacher, like both of my parents, or an accountant. That seemed to be another path that was open to me. And I was like, oh, that sounds really boring. So when I graduated from uni, I had jobs but not a career, I didn't go down the sort of graduate career path until five years later, when I kind of reassessed what I wanted, and set myself some goals around what I wanted out of a career in the longer term, ended up at KPMG on the trainee accountant scheme, so I couldn't avoid it any longer. And actually, I'm so glad that I did go down that route. It's created so many opportunities for me. And yeah, I joined Grant Thornton six years ago. Initially, I trained in tax, and I'm now, over the last couple of years, I've transitioned into a role focusing on inclusion and diversity.

Joy Burnford: Brilliant. And I know you've recently relocated as well, haven't you? Have you found that?

Bethan Gill: Yes, overall, a really great experience. So we were living in Norwich, so I had relocated quite a lot in the past for my husband's work. So supporting him, it was one of the things I really was looking for in my career, as well, it was a an organisation that would give me geographical mobility to support him. So he works in professional football. And I've always wanted to support him, but have my own career as well. And when he was playing, we moved around quite a bit. And he's been coaching now for the last, I guess, six years. So when he started that we moved back to Norfolk, which is where we're both from, with our children, as our eldest started primary school. And then last summer, he had the opportunity to move to Swansea and we made the sort of decision overnight as a family that we would go with him. So it's the first time that we have relocated in six years and also the first time we've moved children's schools, but it's been incredible. It's a beautiful place to come, everyone here is so lovely, welcoming and the children have settled in really well so I can't complain apart from we've had to leave behind family and friends.

Joy Burnford: Yeah, and you've got a little puppy as well. I know that's been keeping you busy.

Bethan Gill: I have, he's my little Welsh dog And yeah, he's absolutely amazing. I'm slightly obsessed with him.

Joy Burnford: It must be lovely to go for walks and things where you are as well.

Bethan Gill: Yes, definitely. That's the reason I got him actually, it was something I always saw in my future and possibly my retirement, you know, when someone had asked me once, where do you see yourself in 10 years or longer, and I was like, I'd love to have a dog and walk on the beach. And then when we moved here, I thought, why am I putting that off? Why would I not just do that now? So yeah, I really enjoy that side of it as well.

Joy Burnford: And I'm so delighted you're on the podcast today, because it's a really, you know, sometimes it can be really tricky subject to talk about personal experiences of things like overwhelm and burnout. And I was delighted when you agreed to come on the podcast and talk openly about it, because I think it's so helpful to others to hear stories of how other people have coped and managed with situations. So would you mind talking a little bit about your experience with overwhelm and burnout, if you'd call it that? And I think a lot of our listeners would really relate to that if you're happy to share.

Bethan Gill: Yeah, of course. And yeah, thank you for inviting me on. So I have worked part time since having my first child. So James has just turned 11. And so since I had him, I had a year's maternity leave, and then have worked three days, four days, combinations, different patterns. But I've always worked reduced hours and the same, I had my daughter two years later, and and I've done the same. When Holly my youngest started school in 2017. I decided to, I think I was working four days at that point, but I was finding that I was doing more hours. And, you know, there's a lot of work to do. So I was like, Oh, I might as well go full time once you start school, which is quite ironic looking back, because school hours are so much shorter than nursery. And actually my best friend said to me, but you know, what, about some time for yourself, and I was like, I don't need time for myself, it's fine. And I just ignored that advice. And I also was of the mindset at that point that I needed to be full time before I would get another promotion, before I would get my next promotion. And I was kind of on a bit of a treadmill of like, well, this is where I need to be, this is where I want to get to. So I did that, I put a lot of pressure on myself. And looking back it is ridiculous when I say it, but I also went full time and also signed up to run my first marathon as well, because that was something that was always on my bucket list. And I decided that that was the right time, just ridiculous. So I think it's just this element of always like, okay, what do I need to achieve next. And so just just taking too many things on. I was really enjoying my job them. But actually, I slipped into kind of where I was saying yes to everything. And I was kind of, my boss at the time said that, you know, if he wanted a presentation doing he'd ask me, if he wanted a project he'd ask me, if he wanted a client, because I sort of filled all those roles for him, which is obviously really flattering. But actually, I was saying yes, without realising what that cost was costing me. And I also was then ignoring the physical symptoms. So I was suffering with nausea, with dizziness ,with headaches periodically, and I was just kind of ignoring them and going oh, it's physical, its physical illness, I've got a virus or whatever it is, and might I might have an afternoon in bed, and then I'd crack on again and keep going. Eventually, my body shut down. It wouldn't, I couldn't ignore the warning signs anymore. And actually, I suffered a quite a large panic attack in the night. So this is about six months later, March time, that's six months after I'd gone full time again. And I'd never had a panic attack at all. And it was sort of on reflection. I was like, that must have been what it was, you know, sort of the hot, cold sweats. You know, just disorientation everything. I didn't know what was going on. Ridiculously even then I still got up at my 5:30 alarm to drive 90 minutes to do a presentation. And I sort of ignored the fact that I was feeling so dreadful. But I got halfway there and sort of started to feel like a migraine came on. So again, my body was telling me, you've got to stop. And so I eventually listened. I think I just didn't want to let people down. And so I was kind of on this keep going, keep going. So I stopped the car, I made the call to say I couldn't make it, I went home, got into bed with my laptop so that I could finish off a bit, so I needed to finish off honestly ridiculous. Then I think probably the next call I did was call my mum and say I need some help. I phoned the doctor, had a phone call with the doctor and I said I need to not work anymore. I need to just quit. That was sort of where I'd got to. And the doctor said why don't I sign you off for a couple of weeks and see how you feel. And I said okay, but I couldn't see it changing. And actually in the end, I did only have a couple of weeks off. And that was enough. But it was like I really, really hit rock bottom. I think there was a day where I was having someone around to look at the washing machine and I had to say to my mum, can you be here for that? Because I can't open the door. I can't answer the door to a tradesman and you know, that's like crazy. I don't recognise that person. I just was so uncomfortable and ill basically. So that was probably the first time that I ever really gave thought to my own mental health, and what I needed to do. And I say I was often confusing physical symptoms, with actually, what now I know is my mental health and the kind of attention I need to give that side of things. And immediately I dropped my hours back down, I went right down to three days a week. And, again, that period made me realise that's what I need to do to be my best self, I suppose at work and at home. And it really, I often say it was one of the best, sounds awful, but the best thing that could happen to me because it made me address myself. And it made me understand what my needs are, what my drivers are and what I can do, what I can manage. And actually, if I'm not okay, no one's okay, because I'm the one that runs the family. I'm the one that keeps everything moving.

Joy Burnford: And it's such a familiar story. Sadly, I think a lot of women suffer from kind of mental load, you know, mental overload, and the sort of managing a family managing as you know, in my book, I talk about the four Ms, so I talk about maternity, monthlies, miscarriage and menopause, caring responsibilities and everything that brings and all of these additional pressures that women in particular, and obviously men do have some of these similar pressures, but generally women do take on the kind of the biggest burden of these things. I'd be interested to know thinking back to that time, is there anything that either, you know, the organisation, or you could have done differently to try and intervene in that kind of time before you got to that point of having those two weeks off? You know, was there anything that you wished you'd had, or done differently?

Bethan Gill: Firstly, I was, I'm quite proud that I only had two weeks off, and not that that's a badge of honour. And, you know, people need longer, so be it. And in fact, I think I had two and a half weeks in the end, but again, I wasn't going back to what I was doing. And my organisation, and it was at Grant Thornton at the time, they were brilliant in terms of people that supported me and were like, yep, we understand. And they took, you know, took the work off me, supported me back and everything. What I think is probably the driver is knowing yourself, not relying on someone else to recognise these things. You know, everyone's got their own priorities, they've got their own concerns and challenges. And it's really hard. You know, we talk about in work about the role of the people manager, and, you know, it's so vital, and it's so important, but it's also really hard to constantly be thinking about other people when you're also trying to think about yourself, and also do your own work. And so I guess my biggest takeaway and advice to people is, take ownership of your own situation and really understand what what you need, and then ask for that. And my best friend said to me, do you think you need some time? And I was like, no, I don't need any time, it's fine. I didn't listen. So this is the thing, isn't it? 

Joy Burnford: It's like when mothers say, you need to do this or whatever. And my mother is probably listening to this podcast, but she'll be, she knows that I go yes, yes, yes. And I don't really listen at the time, but then, you know, ultimately, I will sort of drip feed and go in and I will do something and say that was good advice.

Bethan Gill: I think that's it. So sometimes you're in it, and you won't, you don't necessarily listen to the advice. And so that's why it's so important to know for yourself where your limits are.

Joy Burnford: And you talk about the kind of, you know, more recently, you've recognised certain triggers for you, and can you talk a little bit about that and what those are for you?

Bethan Gill: Yeah. So I think, again, that experience, what that allowed me to know, is what I need to look out for, for myself, because I basically didn't want to get there again. I didn't want to get to that point. Because that was no good for me, it was no good for my family, and it was no good for my colleagues either. You know, it's like, actually, it's better to have me here some of the time on a part time basis, than to not have me at all. That's what I've realised. So in terms of understanding what I need going forwards, it's just really recognising, and it's still it's not immediate, you know, I realise that I'll be quite tired, I'm quite irritable, I'm, you know, I'm not making time for exercise, and I'm not probably eating as well as I should and then possibly reaching for the glass of wine too many evenings. 

Joy Burnford: So many people are sitting there nodding at this point.

Bethan Gill: And so it turns out, you know, there's not a perfect formula, but it is, I think, for me where I've got to at this point, I think the pandemic probably beat me up a little bit as well. Again, similarly, as a working parent, working mother, the homeschooling kind of left me pretty traumatised, trying to work at the same time, trying to set the children up. I really am a strong advocate for for gender equality in the workplace and at home and I really push my husband and he's supportive, but ultimately, especially in the second lockdown, his work carried on and his is out of the house. So it was literally like, okay, it's me and children, and I wasn't a key worker, and it was like, okay, yeah, we can do this. Let's do this. But I think it really took its toll. So that's, you know, that was sort of the start of it. And then we had the relocation, which again, is another point where I was obviously putting everyone else before me with the children, with my husband and everything, just kind of right let's manage this. Let's make sure everyone's okay, make sure the children's settle well, let's make sure that I don't drop a ball at work. So I was like, okay, yeah, well, this is great, because I've been working at home anyway. So I can just pick my laptop up, carry on as I am just in a different home office, and a bit naive, really, because I was leaving behind any kind of childcare that I had. And even that, actually, so my children are now primary school age, in year four and year six. So I was like, oh, well, I don't really need to get much after school care in place because they can come home, they can look after themselves and know have a snack and I can carry on working. So yeah, I kind of just thought it was all okay. And then I got to the point where I was like, I'm exhausted, work was creeping into everything. So I was taking children to school, come back working, picking them up, come back working, and taking them to their clubs, coming back working, putting them to bed, working. It just wasn't okay, that isn't what I want from my life. And so something had to give. At that point, I was lucky enough where I could reduce my hours, I was doing two jobs, actually, again, probably not the best situation. It's like a perfect storm. But I was able to kind of drop half of it. So again, really fortunate to be supported in that way where I could say, this isn't working, something needs to give and being responded to in the right way by my organisation. So I dropped my hours right down, ended up doing three short days, but actually still felt like I was not quite giving what I wanted to be giving to work. And I likened it to feeling like I was at the bottom of a down escalator trying to go up, just sort of fighting against the tide all the time and never quite being my best self at work, which I want to be. And actually, ironically, I felt I was letting people down. But really, I'm letting myself down. Because actually turning up sort of substandard is not how I want to operate. And so actually, it's about taking that time to think about that and reflect.

Joy Burnford: And it's really hard, isn't it with the working at home thing because I do it as well. And it's very hard to create those boundaries and be really strict with yourself. And I'm not very good at doing it. I'm honest. Because it's so easy when you can have your laptop with you. And it's very easy to kind of have that always on. So it's really hard to make those boundaries. And it's something I think a lot of us struggle with.

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Joy Burnford: So you're now on a sabbatical for three months, aren't you? So how did that come about? And what helped you make that decision?

Bethan Gill: So I was at that, sort of a bit of a crossroads of like, what's next. So I was coming to the end of a project and it was a secondment actually on gender equality, which is how we've been in touch Joy. And something I'm so passionate about, and it was a 12 month post and it's coming to an end at the end of June. And it was like, Okay, what's next? Do I get back to what I was doing? Do I actually step away and possibly resign? Do I take a break? You know, those sort of things were going through my head, like what needs to happen now? And actually, it was conversation with someone at work, someone quite senior who said, well, I've taken sabbaticals before for my mental health, and it's okay. And because I was like, oh, what impact will it have on my career? Will it make me go backwards? Will it mean that there might not be opportunities for me. And that conversation was massive, because I was like, oh, okay, that's brilliant. So it feels really supported. And then again, I felt like, oh, I can't take three months out of the business, I'll be letting people down. And it was because I was in that mode of people pleasing. You know, it's like, again, one of those triggers when you realise that you're putting everyone else ahead of yourself. So, yeah, we've got a policy for it at work. You know, it's unpaid, but it's, you know, fully supported, and it's an option there for people. So it took me a little while to kind of really get on board with it as such and feel like it was the right thing to do. But then, to be honest, as soon as I started to tell people that I was going to be taking this 12 week sabbatical from 1 July. The reaction was just like, oh my god, I'm so jealous, I wish I was doing that and actually, yeah, I think also I said to someone I haven't had a break since maternity leave, and it was like, well, that's not a break.

Joy Burnford: Oh, exactly. That's not a break!

Bethan Gill: So it's like, yeah, it's a bit like, Oh, it's okay to get off this treadmill for a minute and to, I mean, obviously, I can't yet say, if it does have an impact, what impact it will have, at the moment, I can only imagine that it's going to be positive in terms of how I'm going to feel going back, I'm already quite excited to go back in October, to know that I'll be refreshed and I'll be energised and more motivated. Like, my husband did say to me, like I don't think you'll want to go back to work. And I said, I do think I will, like, I'm so driven by my career. And I'm not ready to not be, to not have that as part of my character. You know, I don't want to just be a mum and a wife.

Joy Burnford: It's hard work being a mum and a wife, I find that much harder than doing work. 

Bethan Gill: Exactly. And so, yeah, I'm taking this time to pause, to reflect, to read some books and walk my dog on the beach. And actually to also, as you said there about boundaries, to put boundaries in place ready for my return so that actually, I'm not trying to do things at the same time, when I'm working, I'll be working. And when I'm parenting, I'll be parenting and actually, which will involve me going out to an office more often, which would involve, you know, having more childcare in place, make sure my husband's doing more of his share, and all that as well.

Joy Burnford: That's it. And it's one thing that I talk about in the book actually is, I talk about the sort of big struggle on the mountainside. For a lot of women, it's quite a massive struggle up the mountain. And actually what organisations can do, if they're clever about it, is create these kind of refuges on the side of the mountain to let people have a rest, have a break, then get back on the path and carry on rather than falling off the mountainside completely. Just you know, give people that break, and nurture them. And actually, you've got to fill up your own fuel tank before you can help others. So it's really important to kind of think about filling your own bucket up and replenishing first. Well done for making that happen. And I hope your sabbatical is as exciting and relaxing as it can be.

Bethan Gill: I mean, six weeks of it will be spent with the children on their summer holiday. 

Joy Burnford: It's lovely to be able to do that, it will be so lovely to do that, it's so nice and not have to worry about how to juggle.

Bethan Gill: Exactly my normal spreadsheet of you know, who's looking after them, what day and all that, which I do. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that, even if it means that there'll be less sort of time for me to read my books during that period.

Joy Burnford: Absolutely. So before we finish, I wonder if you have any sort of final tips for women on looking after their own wellbeing alongside their career, and you've given so many today, but is there any sort of nuggets of sort of wisdom that you could leave people with?

Bethan Gill: Well, one thing you just mentioned then about the sort of the mountain and the kind of taking those chances to pause and rest. And I think I've definitely been guilty in the past of probably trying to compare myself to other people and other people's journeys. And, and actually, you know, even to the point where I mentioned at the start that I joined the profession, late as such, I was, you know, five years postgraduate when I joined with a load of 21 year olds, so, you know, I always felt like I was playing catch up. And actually, it's about your own journey. So I still have ambitions to get to partner. So I'm a level four at the moment, our partners are level six. So it's like actually, that's still something I see in my future one day, but actually, I've come to terms with that doesn't have to be tomorrow, it can be in the future, because what I want to do is enjoy the journey as well and make sure that I'm content with each stage. And, you know, having that time with my children, and time for myself and time to walk the dog and you know, rather than race to the top and then look around and not have anything or anyone to enjoy it with. Our careers are long, I think retirement age is going to get further away. So it's about actually making the most of that that journey. So I guess my top tip would be, don't compare yourself to anyone else and just really understand yourself, really understand your own triggers, and do what you need to do to be happy and healthy.

Joy Burnford: Thank you so much, Bethan. It's been an absolutely fantastic conversation. And so helpful, I've taken lots of tips away from it from myself as well. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Bethan Gill: Thanks for having me.

Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics. 

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Thank you, and until the next time, bye for now.